A Psychiatrist & A Philosopher On The Sanford Scandal
A while back when the hot story of the day was South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford and his furtive relationship with an Argentine woman, my colleagues and I rushed to write a related feature for the Wall Street Journal. As is often the case when working on such pieces, the story evolves or the facts change or views shift on what the feature should or shouldn’t look like.
While working on the story, I spoke with two very interesting people whose comments didn’t make it into the final feature. These are Victor Casafus, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Buenos Aires, and Alejandro Rozitchner, a philosopher and author of countless books and articles on philosophy and culture.
Their thoughts deserve attention and are sure to be of interest to anyone interested in the topic.
Among other things, I asked both men what they thought about the “scandal” and about how Argentines and Americans might react differently to it. So without further ado, but with their permission, here is some of what they had to say about the matter.
NOTE: These comments were made in late June, just as the scandal was peeking in the news cycle.
Victor Casafus:
Our societies are different. There is a culture of masculinity here in Argentina related to the Latin American prototype of what it means to be a man. One of the icons of masculinity is the conquest of women. This is passed on from generation to generation. Many men have taken their boys to have their first sexual experiences with a prostitute.
Virility is valued and has to be shown. In the U.S. this doesn’t seem to the case at all. We get this largely from our history of immigration from Spain and Italy. In Italy, virility is highly valued. You can see this now with Prime Minister Berlusconi. While people here and in Italy condemn his behavior publically, in private they still view it positively. Berlusconi is considered a master. This kind of thing is valued in Argentina. Weakness is associated with homosexuality.
There’s a culture here in which in some sense women are just an object of desire and to a certain degree women accept this. While many women criticize this culture, they do everything they can to appear attractive, to be physically fit and to appear pleasing to men.
Argentine women in general seem softer and more spontaneous than women in other countries. They take care of themselves, they don’t let themselves get fat, and they work hard to please – or to seem pleasing – to men. Many Argentine women like foreign men more than they like Argentine men. This is particularly true with men from developed counties like the U.S. and Europe.
Women here sometimes see these men opening doors and possibilities for them. Foreigners, in turn, see local women as soft and affectionate. In Argentina we’re more affectionate, even with people we don’t know, than are people in many other countries. Argentines kiss each other on the cheek and hug each other. This kind of thing generates an attraction to Argentine women – women who already are very good at flirting.
Americans react differently to sexual scandals because the American society is largely a Victorian one. Americans haven’t gotten over that nature.”
Alejandro Rozitchner:
As Argentines, the Puritanism that Americans express when they talk about a womanizer always catches our attention. This isn’t because we think it’s alright for a politician or a family man to lead a promiscuous life. Rather, it’s because we understand that these kinds of things happen, that they can happen, that they are part of the complex emotional life of both men and women. These are difficulties that we all have in figuring out how to fulfill our desires.
Often infidelity can be the expression of a search for personal evolution, a path by which people try to actualize their desires and free themselves from old desires that have become mere commitments bereft of the vital force that once undergirded them.
Marriages are worthwhile to the degree that they remain alive and vital, and it’s very common for this kind of thing to happen in relationships that don’t evolve.
I don’t think it’s a good thing to publically bash a politician who is trying to deal with the complexity of his private life just as any other person would.
I don’t like this hyper-moralistic aspect of Americans. The U.S. is such a capable and creative country, but it seems to become a bit silly when it comes to these things. We need to understand that we’re all subject to the same kind of difficulties, that politicians are humans, and that the most valuable politicians are those who show their humanity without fear and who don’t try to hide their humanity at any cost.
Rozitchner blogs at 100 Volando.
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“Many men have taken their boys to have their first sexual experiences with a prostitute.”
I cannot diagree with this statement more. This is something that happened last century. Parents here do not take their boys to have sex with prostitutes. This could have happened long before 1940.
Why dont you ask argentineans above 60 years old who their first time was with and you will see. I do not know who this man is but he is either very old or had this experience and believes everybody went through the same.
Americans have this strong thing of the puritanism imbedded that is extremely ingnorant of the human nature. Religion has a hold on them, too bad. They also love to torture the wife of the politian making her to stand besides her husband when he is apoloyizing in public. In some way is like they are making her guilty of this. Very bad thing. Women should not do that. If the voters want that, this is just plain horrible.
They need to grow up.
I like Rozitchner’s analysis though I did he fell short saying “bit silly” I think he was trying to please the american readers. He should have said “plain stupid”.
Shes’s a gato.
Another one, looking for someone to pay her bills.
Nothing else, nothing less.
Gobernor apologies to your spouse and get back in track.
When Rozitchner talks about hypermoralistic culture when referring to the American culture, he does so from the point of view of a society that holds no strong values, that is one of the reasons why Argentina is such an unstable country, they don’t get behind anything, they are hyper-skeptics, their moral is relative, there is nothing absolute in the morality of an Argentine.
It is plain stupid to think American polititians are about high moral standards.
- Heroin
- Cocaine
- Oil
- Federal Reserve
- Pharmaceuticals
- Banks
They are all involved in the worst criminal acts
“their moral is relative, there is nothing absolute in the morality of an Argentine”
Argentineans at least do not go all over the world saying “infinite justice” or “in god is our trust” as a moto to commit all sorts of crimes and sins
Please, guys, men are men in everywhere. It is his nature. If they can they have an affair with another woman all around the world. The problem here is –as A.Rozitchner says- this poor guy is a politician in the USA, that´s all. Latin countries are different, just see at Berlusconi´s busy sexual life.
As an American, I have to say that these sweeping statements regarding our “puritanical” views are really ridiculous. While many people in my country may indeed be described as moralistic (and yes, even puritanical), I would never use that word to describe Americans as a whole- we are as diverse as the fish in the sea. I understand that the media coverage of this may have been over-the-top, but “if it sells paper” as they say…why not blame it on American capitalism instead? Incidentally, I’d be curious to know the amount of coverage given to this story in Argentina vs. in the U.S. I have a feeling that the only place it was covered more than in South Carolina’s press was in the Argentine press.
Casafus: “Virility is valued and has to be shown. In the U.S. this doesn’t seem to the case at all.” Wow. How wrong you are. I assume you’ve watched a lot American television, and never actually spoken to any real Americans.
Casafus: “We get this largely from our history of immigration from Spain and Italy.” That’s interesting. Because we get our valued virility from our history of immigration from Spain and Italy and Africa and Ireland and England and Puerto Rico and Russia and yes, even Argentina.
Casafus: “Weakness is associated with homosexuality.” Ok, but since we’re generalizing, how do you feel about the stereotype that many straight Argentine men like to dabble with guys on the side? Not that I’m complaining.
Rozitchner: “I don’t think it’s a good thing to publically bash a politician who is trying to deal with the complexity of his private life just as any other person would.” Mark Sanford was accused of using public funds to pay for his trysts, which he has since been cleared of. However, he disappeared for several days without telling anyone where he was going. He a state governor! That shows terrible leadership, and is completely irresponsible. Also, let’s not forget that this conservative and hypocrite publicly spoke against, and voted to impeach, Clinton following the Lewinsky scandal. Bash away, I say.
Anonymous: “They also love to torture the wife of the politian making her to stand besides her husband when he is apoloyizing in public.” “They?” Who is “they”? The American people? Really? Why didn’t I didn’t get that memo where we all agreed to meet in order to force her to stand next to her husband during their PR statement?
Americans are not hyper-moralistic, they are hyper-hypocrites
Hyper hyopocrits? Really? I am an American married to an Argentinean woman, and My wife has been telling me almost daily for near 14 years of the hypocracy of most Argentine Men. Honestly I do not believe this to be the case across the whole cutlure, but It is certainly true of her personal experiences. This said: It is a false statment to make a blanket statement of this nature when you have no statistical data to back up your claim. I am a man of very high moral character, but that may be subjective because I veiw myself through my own eyes( as I am sure you veiw yourself through your eyes); I am not a hypocrit on any level ! I do have my veiw of life and morality , and I do adhere to it! As far as politics and infidelity; My opinion is that if a man does not honor his wife and family, then why should we believe that he will honor his commitments to the public he is supposed to serve? I am curious, in this country we see politicians as servants rather than rulers; is this also true in Argentina or not?
Who puts the wife at the side of the sinner? The polititians! why? because of the public opinion! THE AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION!
I am not sure where you get youropinion from, but If you are refering to women like Hilary Clinton, Or perhaps John Edwards wife, I have to tell you they have theri own reasons for doing what they do. Most people that I know think they are foolish for standing beside such men after a betryal such as they have experienced. There does seem to be one other expliantion that many people have wondered about tinthe case Of Hilary Clinton: Many believe that She and Bill have a secretly open marriage in which he can have women ( as long as he keeps it out of the sptolight) and she can also have women (as long as she does the same). I would not care if this was the case except that the secrecy shows a deceptive nature that begs questions of public trust into play
As anyone can see in this blog Americans are never open to take any critic at all, they always say they do the right thing, they think the right thing, they invade the right country… always thinking so high of themselves, they are NARCISISTIC MANIACS..!
You are an ignorant ass! We are the most critical of ourselves( and our politicians)! Yes we do seek the moral high ground, but why is that a bad thing? Yes we have fought many wars( usaully at the request of a weak nation that is in danger), and yes we usually see these as moral fights, but you forget that my country has been largely taken over by Globalist/ politicains who push us to follow some U.N interests. Please remember that it was German intelligence services that gave us information about Saddams wwmd’s and I presume gave this information in the hopes that We at least had the Balls to act. I find it very interesting that these same countries latter protested our invasion of Iraq: and even more interesting that Russia, France and Germany (the most vocal opponents of our invasion) were found to have violated the arms embargo against Iraq, by trading weapons and war materials for oil. One more thing, We are now being undermined by the same organization that undermined your banking industry under Jose Menem; George Soros I have argued with my sister-in-law about this and she still thinks that the U.S was responsible for your econo,mic collapse, but the fact is that is was global elitists banker from the world community that engineered and executed both economic meltdowns.
“They also love to torture the wife of the politian making her to stand besides her husband when he is apoloyizing in public.”
I cannot agree more with this.
The Polititians put the wife in such a terrible position because they think the public opinion will like him having his public confession as if your country were a big protestant church. That is what they do in protestant churches. They do politics as they do religion: with hyprocresy
People in glass house should not throw stones! What was it ,five presidents in 6 months? Weren’t bank withdrawals limited of two hundred pesos per month at a time when your currency was being de-valued almost daily? Jose Menem was a womanizer who used +public money to buy multi million dollar homes ( in your country and in Florida) drove a red Ferrari , and is allegeded to have killed his own son ( accused by his ex wife and other) for political reasons and was jailed , released from jail and once again became a possible presidential contender upon returning from prison( some of which which parallels Peron’s political life), isn’t your current president the wife of your last president( thereby side stepping term limits)? I say that both countries have their share of corruption, but if there were to be a comparison of which is worse; I would have to say your country has been much less stable and/or idealistic than mine.
“one of the reasons why Argentina is such an unstable country, they don’t get behind anything, they are hyper-skeptics, their moral is relative, there is nothing absolute in the morality of an Argentine.”
I wish you wouldn’t generalize and categorize us. As an argentine, I do have morals and I stand by them. In the same way some americans cheat and are corrupt, argentines cheat and are corrupt as well. You can’t label a country based on ONE person. Maybe our politicians lie a LOT, and they do so in the open. That doesn’t mean american politicians are spotless (that would be highly impossible, no matter the country).
The difference regarding this “matter” is our culture. I would not be scandalized if, for example, Cristina Kirchner had an affair, nor any other politician. I would only care if their actions contradicted their so called morals or outlooks; but even then I wouldn’t be scandalized. I don’t understand why americans were scandalized by that action, nor do I really care seeing as it has nothing to do with my country. I only pity the wife, seeing as she has to endure public humiliation and stand by a lying and conniving human being just because that is what is expected of her.
About men debuting with prostitutes… it is true, but it does not include every single boy out there…
Only someone who has truly experienced and been part of both cultures will be able to explain this matter with any veracity. Perhaps our machistic cultures celebrates adultery, or perhaps we are more open about it that any other culture?
Casafus’ history lesson doesn’t really give much to the psychological or sociological insight to the ‘scandal’ itself; however, he does seem to nicely set up the comments made by Rozitchner. Of course there are going to be cultural differences due to social development of both US and Argentina, but as first Anonymous’ comment is trying to point out, we’re no longer in the 1940s.
In fact, I believe it’s now the 21st century and I do not see how he can make the comparison that Argentine women want men from a developed country…Last time I checked, Argentina IS a developed country!!! The best point he makes, though, is about our Victorian nature.
I would have liked that Rozitchner refer to this terminology rather than using Puritanism, but otherwise he definitely makes some very good points. And by no means does he try to place blame or make excuses for anyone’s actions. Rather he seems to be making an appeal to U.S.’s logic and sensibility – and believe me, I really would hope some of us would get some!
Salu2,
BDClark0423
I’m pretty used to hear Alejandro Rozitchner talking nonsense. This time he says interesting things on most paragraphs, though. I don’t know Victor Casafus, but if he’s professor of Psychiatry, why does he repeat such lugares comunes about both the US and Argentina? Any Argentine without information, zero critical analysis, and sweeping notions about relations between civilization and masculinity could repeat his words (associating ethnic traditions with virility without any evidence of the continuing influence of those traditions — incidentally showing that he’s just relying on his own ethnic prejudices) “Virility is valued and has to be shown. In the U.S. this doesn’t seem to the case at all.” This is plain ignorance and pure prejudice. There’s a large literature on masculinity and virility in the U.S., much of it related to sports and war. Ok, I’m gonna stop. What Casafus wrote is 100% useless.