Comments on: Kirchner Lo Hizo … Y Deshizo

By: The Argentine Post » Blog Archive » Trust, Friendship & Development In Argentina

Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:20:00 +0000

[...] about Argentine politics is that it’s a pretty safe bet that whomever comes into power will reverse or undue many of the major policies put into place by his or her predecessor. Unlike in countries such as [...]

By: taos

taos — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:22:44 +0000

Dear Doc Conosur,

I find your comments to be fascinating. Thank you very much for them.

Best wishes,
Taos

By: taos

taos — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:20:55 +0000

Hey Argie,

I just wanted to thank you for your very interesting comments. They’ve inspired a great deal of thought here and in my own mind. Personally, I firmly believe we all have a moral obligation – a kind of Kantian duty, if you will – to behave in a way that makes the world a better place.

I’m not sure how what, if anything different, requires of expats or foreign residents in particular communities. Is there an additional or distinctive moral obligation? I really don’t know, but I’ve very much enjoyed thinking about this and will continue to do so.

Saludos,
Taos

By: Ricardo

Ricardo — Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:08:12 +0000

Brilliant overview. This is rule without law. We’re in the jungle.

By: Doc Conosur

Doc Conosur — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:48:32 +0000

It has been a couple of days since I last visited this blog. I’ve noticed a few commentaries after my last one. I am not certain if people go back to the comments to reread them, but I felt the impulse to have to throw in my two cents for what they are worth.
To Mr. Argentino: At first I thought you were using the example of when you were ten years old and heard your friend’s comment, to do what most of us do to point to a problem. I got the impression that your example was going to be used only to point to the problem and therefore to the negative. I continued to have that impression as I read your next paragraph, and what came to mind was, the often heard saying among Argentines, “asi somos.” As to imply that Argentines, we are doomed to be or behave in a particular fashion. But as I kept on reading, I realized that you had transcended beyond recognizing the problem, analyzing it to shreads, and regurgitating it ad nauseum, to accepting the fact, that the beginning of healing is the acceptance of the problem in the most humble of ways, and then suggesting that there is hope. And as the proverb says, “if there is hope, there is life.” I also recognized, that you understand, that this type of behavior, for a lack of a better word, is not exclusively inherent to the Argentine citizen. You are lucidly correct when you say that this is not necessarily and exclusively an Argentine trait. It is a “human” trait.
Then you followed with the most important contribution. You accepted the possibility of “hope.” And therefore, you accepted the possibility of “change.” In addition, you reached deep into the literary library of reason and used a Biblical passage as proof, to substantiate, that what you view as the path to a solution to the problem, is incarnate in hope, faith, acceptance, humility and redemption. (”…and this too, shall pass.”) I believe in a Creator. I also believe that he made us in his likeness. From this I deduce that he has given me free will. And I also believe that inherent with this quality of free will, comes the responsibility to accept right from wrong, good from evil, and the awareness that there is the potential for good and evil in each and every one of us human beings. This in itself makes the self-evident truth that faced with choices in every situation in life, we are free to accept good from evil. The choice is ours. Are we here to help each other, our community, our country, or humanity? Or are we here to hurt ourselves, each other, our community, our country, or humanity as a whole? I choose the former high road. I want to help. I want to be hopeful. I want to do good. I want to love and not hate. Everyone and everything. I want to be a man of character and integrity. Let me stop here and make this statement; I am not pontificating to anyone and pretending to be holy. I have know sin and have known self-righteousness in the incarnate. I have confronted it vis-a-vis. And more than once, I have been humbled. And along this fortuitous path that I have come to call “my life,” I have amassed some experiences, fought some battles, and emerged with voluminous scars. To borrow from the lyrics of a tango, “life is an absurd scar.”
But the pearl of wisdom to be gathered along the way is that even in the face of everything, and as a consequence of all, you do heal and scar. Is this not hope?
Is this not growth? Is this not what our Creator meant us to experience and learn from? Are we not to learn something redeemable even from suffering?
I choose to accept that there is. And that is why no matter how many times I have been knocked off the high road, I have managed to struggle and fight my way up to follow that path. Eventually I will be summoned to confront my Creator and at that moment I want to feel that I gave my life, my best shot. Is this not what our mother and father would want for me? Is this not what any mother and father would want for his child? And there lies the key to a life of substance, character and integrity.
I will repeat what I said before, it starts with the individual, with the family and then it must brim over (to use Mr. Argentino’s verb) to the society. Building anything that will last the test of time, entails returning to the basics. It requires setting a solid foundation and then brick-by-brick we build our fortress, our country, our legacy.
As a loving parent, I cannot conceive the thought of wanting to teach my children to lie, cheat or steal. And to borrow Mr. Argentino’s example of his 10 year old friend, I ask where, when, who and why, took that child’s innocence away?
Perhaps not in my lifetime but hopefuly in my children’s lifetime, Argentina will once again rise to the top of the heap. But I do not speak of technological, intellectual, or pecuniary heap. I am suggesting something greater in acquisition. I am speaking of the attainment of the grace of God for people to look at Argentina as a role model for a country of character, substance and principles that others will want to emulate.
Again, all I have written, is nascent from the most humble intentions and should not be interpreted as a flaunting of myself or any of my qualities. Be that to be, for what it is worth. Thank you for allowing me to feel useful this morning.

By: Brian McKenna

Brian McKenna — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:56:36 +0000

As a native New Yorker legally resident and working free lance in Argentina for 31 years I would like to make the following comment.I don’t believe that being a legal foreign resident in any country is enough reason to expect that person to start making suggestions on how the host country should go about making positive changes in itself.If they want to,fine go ahead and do it.If it were something to be expected than we in the U.S.A. would have to expect suggestions on change from the approximately 700,000 Argentines resident in our country which,although they are free to do so,we certainly do not expect them to do.
However,since one reader seems to want a suugestion I would like to give him one.Forget the U.S.A. for once just look around at your neighbors.They are using the same socio-political tools that we do in the U.S.- compromise and a search for agreement on pressing issues.By comprimise I don’t mean”compromiso”.I mean “consenso y acuerdo”.
These keys to political and economic success are manifestly evident in Brazil,Chile and now in the country in the Southern Cone that is the closest to Argentina culturally and sociologically,Uruguay.The ex-Tupamaro Jose Mujica has said that he plans to emulate Tabare Vazquez’s market-friendly
policies.The Chilean and Brazilian examples are almost too well known to comment
on.As Lula said,” In Brazil,Christ would make an alliance with Judas,if He thoght it was necessary”. Clarin got it right when they coined their newspaper’s motto,
” Un toque de atencion para la solucion argentina de los problemas argentinos”.
Cuanta verdad,profesor! Now just do it.

By: Mr. Argentino

Mr. Argentino — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:54:48 +0000

Dear Argie and Doc Conosur:
I know what I say can be expressed in any language, but as I’m sure to ignore the real value of the words for each culture, and becausse of the thigs I want to say, I prefer to write this commentary on my own language. I have no doubt that you will understand.
I was born an raised in a little town at the south of Buenos Aires Province. My Grandparents were immigrants or sons of european innigrants, and I’ve lived the paradox of the Argentinian way of life every single day of my life.
To give only one example, I have to say that when I was 10, a school mate told me (10 years old too): “When I grow up I want to be a politician. because in this country you have to “save” yourself, and do nothing for others, because “others” will do nothing for you”.
No quiero decir con esto que en nuestro bendito País nadie hace nada por los demás. Conozco de cerca maravillosos ejemplos de solidaridad y entrega para con los necesitados. Lamentablemente también conozco a los que hacen de la solidaridad un comercio vil (en todo el sentido de la palabra). Y esto es parte de la naturaleza humana, no necesariamente Argentina…
Pero lo que me anima a escribir esta nota es lo que dice Doc Conosur acerca de empezar en la intimidad de la persona, continuar en la familia y “rebalzar” hacia la sociedad. También quiero rescatar que repite “in my humble opinion” y a este punto quiero llegar.
Creo que si pudiera destacar algo que nos caracteriza a los argentinos, eso sería la falta de humildad. Muy pocas veces he visto en un compatriota un deseo sincero de aceptar una corrección oportuna sin mirar quien es el que corrige.
Mi punto es: si a mi me falta algo y alguien me lo dice, mi responsabilidad como ser humano, esposo, padre, vecino y con-nacional es: tomar la corrección, examinarme y determinar (desde mi humilde punto de vista) si es correcta. Si lo es, debo trabajar para incorporarla a mi comportamiento. Es decir, no importa tanto quien lo diga; si tiene razón y puedo mejorar, es bueno para mi, para mi circulo íntimo y finalmente para quienes me rodean!
Finalmente, quien me dio la correción es responsable de sus propios pensamientos, actos y ¡consecuencias! A lo sumo podré ayudarlo, si es que cuento con la herramienta para hacerlo.
Lógicamente, a todos nos duele que nos corrijan desde “afuera”, pero si la corrección es buena (sin siquiera mirar la intención) y me ayuda a mejorar, en este caso como País; bienvenida!
No quisiera terminar este comentario sin mencionar una cita de La Biblia que es clara en cuanto al valor de la humildad para con nuestro creador (y de allí para abajo), como catalizador de crecimiento. Nótese que digo humildad y no hablo de servilismo o pasividad ante la conquista. El pasaje es: 2° Crónicas. cap. 7, Vs. 14
“si se humillare mi pueblo, sobre el cual mi nombre es invocado, y oraren, y buscaren mi rostro, y se convirtieren de sus malos caminos; entonces yo oiré desde los cielos, y perdonaré sus pecados, y sanaré su tierra.”
El pasaje tiene varias “aristas” y es necesario examinarlo en su contexto, pero no es este el momento ni el lugar. Simplemente tomarlo como tip para estar más abiertos a algunas cosas que nos molestan un poco…

By: Argie

Argie — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:23:38 +0000

Doc Conosur — As an Argentinian-American, I see things from both sides of the fence — so I understand where people are coming from. I completely agree with you that change must come from within but if it hasn’t occurred thus far, that means that a catalyst force is missing. While some of us know that significant changes must take place for the betterment of our society, we need to take action and be the catalyst force that would produce positive change given that not everyone thinks that change is needed. Some people just simply get used living in certain conditions and/or accept certain ways of living as the norm — in this case accepting the government — because they don’t know different or better.

My point is that those who have immigrated — and call themselves Expats (AKA Immigrants) — to Argentina and have obtained DNI’s and choose to overtly criticize and demonize the local government , I ask of them to be proactive and influence positive change instead of whining — which a very Argentinian thing to do. They’re now part of the Argentinian society — so make a positive contribution. Otherwise, their opinions or criticisms simply get lost in translation — literally.

By: Doc Conosur

Doc Conosur — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:50:59 +0000

The only positive change that will occur in Argentina will be up to the people of Argentina. I am an American [I use the term knowing that we are all Americans in the Americas, but applying it to mean from the U.S.A.] who traces his roots to the cousins of the South. It is my intent to bring about awareness that in itself can bring change. But that change must come from the people of Argentina for their own benefit, if they choose to act for change. This must start at the level of the individual. For example, I finf the Spanish language to be rich and romantic in its expessions. Why then do I hear so many people from Argentina use profane words as if it is the norm. And if it is the norm in a society to not have control over your own governance, how do you expect to apply this to the population as a whole. Change for the betterment of a society must start with the individual, then follow with the family and ultimately to the society as a whole. Do as I say and not as I do is not applicable here. Lead by example must be the norm. I have encountered many people from Argentina in my lifetime. I find them to be extremely intelligent and very capable to once again bring their nation back to a leadership position in every aspect of the word. However, in my humble opinion change will not occur for improvement in any society, unless the focus is on the children and future generations. And these generations must see and learn from their mentors that you should always try to take the high road leading by example and not just by grandiloquence. As a recent example, what message is being received by the youth of Argentina by the poor example given by the best soccer player in the world my eyes have ever seen. Diego Maradona has lowered the standards to a new low for Argentines. But it exemplifies the difference between genius and stupidity. The latter not knowing his limits. Unless the people of Argentina begin a Renaisscence at the level of the individual, the country is doomed for a circular destiny. The same can be said of the decadence that is presently being experienced in the greatest civilization that has ever existed in modern times, i.e. the U.S.A. Notice I said modern times. This was intentional. There have been, in the past, many other empires and their peoples, who have contributed to humanity enormously.
But these are in the past. For a society to rise above other societies and show leadership the element of “desire to emulate that society” must be present. Therefore if you want to lead, you have to do it by “example.” This again, starts at the level of the individual and later on it is transferred to the society as a whole. I’ll say it again, you lead by “example” for others to want to follow you. Anything short of that simple fact translates into dominion. There have many leaders who have led societies by domination. Most of those, ultimately, have brought disgrace, dishonor and destruction to their people and their societies. Like Maradona, all the people of Argentina must once again choose right from wrong, good from evil, and the high moral road as opposed to mediocrity. Again, using Maradona as an example, if he wanted to change, he must first accept himself the fact that as a representative of the soccer team of Argentina, he has caused enormous embarrassment to Argentina. He cannot rise above his own agenda and ego, and recognize that he is a figure head in a leadership position. He cannot use the public forum for his own personal vendetta at the expense of the image of a society and country. He therefore has dishonored and disrespected the audience of the world, the people of Argentina and himself.
So I close with the beginning, for a society to make worthwhile change, that change must begin with the individual.

By: Argie

Argie — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:39:29 +0000

Nice write up! Now with all this information and discontent with the Argentinian government, what is it that you guys are going to do to promote positive change? If you are from a foreign country, you have two choices a) leave Argentina, or b) be proactive and promote positive change.

Otherwise, you’ve become just another Argentinian, who simply whines and complains and does not do a thing to promote change.

By: Doc Conosur

Doc Conosur — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:41:04 +0000

In reviewing what I wrote, I realize a few typos, redundancies, and run-on sentences.
But I know everyone gets my drift!

By: Doc Conosur

Doc Conosur — Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:27:11 +0000

I have read many books and articles about Argentina. If there is one word that seems to always pop up, in one way or another, it is the world “enigma.” It is my humble opinion, which has formed over time, and as my hair has acquired varied shades of gray, that enigma is a good way to characterize Argentina and its people. Although a melting pot of European ancestry runs through most Argentine’s veins, no comparison can be made with the U.S.A. The people that settled the Northern cousin, went there to build a new nation and find a new home. The Southern cousins, had origins initially of people who went to find fortunes, steal gold or silver and anything else they could find and take them back to Europe. They did not initially want to run away from religious persecution, nor were they of the highest moral fiber. In addition, the founding fathers of the Northern cousins, when sitting down to discuss the different principles that formed the U.S.A. Constitution, labored long hours discussing each principle before writing that document. The most important and striking difference, was that all the founding fathers came from different backgrounds and religious beliefs. They intended to find a middle of the road Constitution that would protect everyone no matter their religious inclination. In addition, it was stipulated that to serve your country in political office, you should be a person of character and of good moral fiber. Unfortunatelly, in the last years of the Great Northern Cousin, politicians have been more and more corrupt. And I believe, this explains the decadence occurring today in the U.S.A. I believe, that unless we turn the present tide back towards what the founders of the U.S.A. intended, and what the Constitution intended for the Federal government to do and not do, the Northern cousins and their country, will only close the gap and become more and more like the Southern cousins. And for that matter, like many other countries of the World.