Gay Marriage Now Legal But Plurality Still Opposed
Argentine President Cristina Fernández Wednesday signed into law the gay marriage bill, making Argentina the first country in Latin America to allow for same-sex marriage.
But even as advocates rejoiced over the measure, a plurality of Argentines believes Congress made a mistake by passing it.
Around 44.6% of Argentines polled said they disagree with what Congress did while 41.8% said they favor the law.
It’s important to note that the survey, carried out by the polling firm Management & Fit from July 15 through July 16, has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.7%. That is greater than the difference in the poll results, which should make people cautious when drawing conclusions.
Some 13.6% of 1,220 polled said they don’t know what to think about it.
About 57% of people surveyed said the government should have held a national public referendum on the issue before passing the law.
One hundred percent of people polled said the law is “really gay.”*
*For non-native English-speaking readers, this part is just a joke.
hahaha, sooo gay
Taos, you cannot say “Plurality Still Opposed” when the difference is less than the margin of error. It is basics statistics and common sense. 50.103%+/-20% knows that.
You certainly can. What you should do is note that poll’s margin of error, which I did. I’ve given it more attention, however, just to make it clear to anyone who didn’t read far enough down to see the margin of error.
It doesn’t said where the poll was made.
Do a entire country referendum and the margin is going to be a lot bigger for people against that law. Of course if you ask people in Santa Fe and Callao then you have a 50/50 result.
The congress and specially the K’s, don’t care what people want or not. Most of Argentineans will forget about gay’s marriage in some months and the K’s will have a small new group of voters on their side for the next election, because the gays will not forget.
It is just another sad demonstration of how stupid WE the Argentineans are.
@Diego: that cynic approach to other’s people rights (supposed or real) is harmful. 20 years from now nobody in the world will be discussing the issue, and Argentina will be in history books because of this.
Argentina was the first country in America in other subjects as well and we are paying the price for that “modernism”. For example was the first one to turn to the “loved by south Americans” Populist economic and political ideas, then was followed by our other “super smart” neighbors and now we sucks as a country and more as a region (besides some few exceptions). Oh and that was when Argentina was one of the most economically prosperous countries on this world.
So you know what, I prefer to don’t innovate on certain subjects, I’m afraid we would become a disgusting and perverted society.
@Diego: You are still diminishing the debate. This debate is about rights, not policy. woorijip posting summarizes it better. I don’t even say I am in favor of the law. According your second posting which is more clear, you are just conservative and that is fine; but your first posting was not about being conservative, was about giving a very circumstantial explanation of the passing of the law about rights. (which is not even true, because the law was not send to the congress by the executive power or even by the ruling party). Regarding your fears, well, I fear too sometimes, but trust me, at the end it will be all right. If you want to be pragmatic and put statistics on top of right issues, put it this way: I don’t know how many so called gays are in the country. If gays are a lot, then those many people will live happier lives because of this law and that is good. If they are a few then we shouldn’t care anyway.
This is not about civil rights, it is about destructive behaviors, the problem is that sometimes things looks so “pro civil rights” that people get confused.
Marriage for people that think like me, mean the beginning of a family, and again for people like me (always talking about people that think like me) family mean Dad, Mom and the kids if there is any. Two dads, two moms or any other combination is out of that concept and I’m not willing to negotiate a modification of it.
Who would stop marriage between 1 man and 2 women in the future, or 3 mans or any other “weird” combination. Homosexuals are free to enjoy their sexuality, but marriage have nothing to do with sexuality, it is a concept based on a combination of factors that are not present on a homosexual couple.
As for the comments disparaging the legislation, I’m struck by the tone of serafic force and Diego. I think your fears of a moral apocalypse are misplaced. In the USA, we have a longstanding tradition of using a rhetoric of fearmongering about race and homosexuality to manipulate popular opinion, usually as a way to obfuscate more substantial and profound political issues as a result of the big gap in society (such as income disparity/inequality, regressive taxation, exponential military spending [in the USA this is an issue few other countries can imagine because we spend such a disproportionate amount on corporate contracts for the military], etc.).
But Argentina? Sexuality doesn’t seem to pose much of a threat to Argentine socirty from my objective POV. Argentina has survived the years of terror and torture, even though it might not have digested the period. That was a moral low point. Abuse of boys and girls by priests in the Catholic or other churches?
The bottom line is that we collectively have no God-given right to NOT be offended by people we don’t approve of or like.
Accepting the equality of marriage can be very healthy for Argentina. I agree with you (gentlemen?) that the neo-liberal economic policies in Argentina are damaging to society. The widespread unemployment and the tax evasion leading to under-funded social programs is harming the masses while the upper-class gorges itself on profits as usual. If there are no remedies for poverty and the lack of educational and economic opportunities for the Argentine “Everyman”, then paco, crime, and despair will become the accepted norm, as it has in your behemouth neighbor to the North, the USA.
Paranoid homophobic rhetoric misses the point of the real social crises in Argentina and is in itself destructive. Believe it or not, homosexuals are the moral equivalent of heterosexuals; both categories encompass people who run the gamut of the moral spectrum. Aand sexually speaking, Argentine men (and women) are not exclusively gay or straight when it comes to their sexual practices. I acknowledge that officially acknowledging gay marriage (“homosexual” being an adjective having something less to due with the middle class gay rights movement) must trigger a strong reaction in those who have a very rigid or narrow view of the old traditional Argentina. But that Argentina never really existed. I’m not nostalgic for the trata de blancas or the abuse of children by priests or the use of rape as torture.
The bottom line is that the social safety won’t be threatened by gay marriage. It’s threatened by people with money who won’t pay their taxes to support public schools, hospitals, etc. Fear the tax evaders and the economic corruption. As for the gays, relax.
I’ve heard polling data which suggested that in the USA, the Bill of Rights would never be adopted today if put to a referendum. So civic freedom/equality/civil rights is often a minority-based concept which the majority tolerates.
My question is, how likely is this law (constituional amendment?) to survive a change in government? Will the rightwing be able to use this as a wedge issue as it does in the USA? I have the impression that the gay “community” in Argentina is based on the upper middle class model found in the USA (e.g., gay expo in BsAs this month). Will that image provoke a political backlash or is the law (amendment) too institutionally “sticky” to be easily revoked. Or will anyone really care after a year or so? What appeals to me most about it is the live-and-let-live climate “marriage equality” promotes.
What about that country next to Argentina, Yourgay.
Como decíamos en mi familia, in good argenglish: “What a level !”*.
*For non-native Argentine-speaking readers, this is the literal translation of “¡Qué nivel!”
If you are under the age of twelve, that might be amusing (to you).
The poll is a perfect illustration as to why civil right legislation can not wait for public opinion. This has always been true. I don’t care what machinations brought this about. It’s done and a damned good thing it is.
Check the defintion of machinations. Probably not the best word to use for why this legislation was passed.
Signing this new 1054 law was a disgrace.
Will not bring more money or turism revenues, or more votes in her agenda…
This law will only bring more turmoil to an alaready vulnerable society that is unable to defend itself if addicted to drugs, which are a way of life and is acceptable.
We are now the first nation in the whole South American map to be the first….
to convey in this same sex marriage.
But no one asked me a question about it to have space to answer on a yes or no on this matter , no room for a plebiscite, and we are as a nation more than 125 people….Congress was the one who decided for me, for my future, for the future of my family….¿?
Our presidenta said that no one took anything from me or her after this new law.
I believe she is wrong….
Soon we will have a collective disfunctional society, collective insanity a breakdown of respect for the Church and moral values….
Greed and inmense power for her and for us the regulars, the working people, just to pay a price unable to fix the morally degrading consequences
If you keeping telling yourself that the bill will bring turmoil and dysfunction to your family it probably will. Personally, I can’t imagine how homosexual marriages threaten your heterosexual marriage or your family. I would hope that you are a strong enough father / husband to be able to raise a family that is not corrupted such things. But it seems like you are not confident that this is the case.
Along those lines, I would also hope that your church is strong enough to uphold its beliefs. Perhaps the church is not doing its job if its members are so easily persuaded by the influences of external forces.
Are Western European countries facing “collective insanity” as a result of legalizing gay marriage? If so, can you please provide some hard examples? Just curious as to how you are able to so confidently predict this future chaos.
Hey woorijip
This is not about social safety, it is about moral and cultural safety.
And I also live in the USA, so you don’t need to specify how things are here, I know exactly how things are here and I’m glad to leave in NJ where we now have good thinking governor that stop the stupid intent of legalizing gay marriage.
Cultural safety? I think Argentina can weather gay marriage easily. Most people aren’t zealous Catholics anyway. I think you and many other vocal opponents to gay marriage just have a strong anti-bias and don’t like gay marriage. But I assert that even though you are welcome to your opinion, nothing apocalyptic will come from gay marriage. North Americans might be appalled (before they are intrigued) at the matter-of-fact telo phenomenon in Argentina.
You and I might not agree on same-sex sexual practices being either inferior or superior to heterosexual sex practices (I never bought into the belief that marriage is degrading for women), or on the sanctity or benefits of bourgeois marriage for all, but I agree that paco use is going to hurt everyone. That’s why I care more about economic justice.
You are right on the money, woorijip.
I have to give a plus to all your brilliant points of view.
Hard to reply….
I still recognize the people who have a good head over their shoulders, and all the good reasons for what their defend….
Still I will accept all your reasonable remarks as a laundry list.
Kids….all of you are eating the wrong kind of pretzels.
Probably its just me , and old decrepit retired psiychiatric nurse….
But I have (aside of my rigid concepts and rigid monastic life )….seeing enough human misery.
Still good luck in life.
Rest in God.
I’m glad that Argentina has passed such significant human rights law defending the rights of sexual minorities. I am extremely sad that the U.S.A. can’t get its act together when it comes to marriage equality and human rights — it’s simply deplorable. Religious extremists, chauvinistic behavior, fear-mongering tactics, thirdworldish views are destroying a ‘first-world country’.
This post is quite biased. There are a number of polls published in Argentine newspapers that offer completely different numbers. At the same time, there is not enough data about this poll: What was the size been polled? Was a nation-wide poll?
Actually, the universe, as I noted, was 1,220 people and the poll was indeed carried out across the nation on a broad spectrum of people, ages, genders, and educational levels. I don’t typically include all of these details in the posts because most readers don’t care about them. But I do consider them before I consider publishing the poll’s results. Moreover, I do try to include the basic universe and margins of error, which are key. The results of this poll are inline with other polls I’ve seen regarding gay marriage over the past year, so I don’t think this is an outlier, as you suggest. That said, I’d be happy to look into the other polls you say you’ve seen. Saludos!
I have not seen the polls of this firm (Mangment & Fit?) published anywhere else before. Nevertheless, I can say that the polls around the marriage equality bill were contested to say the least. The prestigous firm Analogias stated that there was a 70 % of approval for gay marriage. LGBT organizations (the Federación specially) quoted this result as well as government officials, and FPV senators.
Poliarquía did another survey with slightly different results: 60 % disapproval, and 35 % approval. Carlos Fara & Asociados said the opposite: 54 % approval for gay marriage.
With this said, I believe that it is not prudent to draw conclusions based on surveys. Specially when surveys vary so much depending on who is conducting it.
Un sano escepticismo nunca está demás.
¡Saludos!
“Un sano escepticismo nunca está demás.”
That’s a very good maxim to live by for any kind of reporter.
It’s interesting to see how much pollster’s results can differ not just from each other but from question to question within the same survey.
I’ve been writing about these pollsters for years now and the results can change notably simply because of the way questions are asked.
Regarding gay marriage, this happened as well. The poll cited here took place after the bill was passed and asked people if they agreed with what Congress did. That’s a very different question than one asking people in general if they support gay marriage. Meanwhile, most people polled, in a number of surveys, indicated they support gay marriage, per se, but did not support giving gays the same right to adoption. So there are a lot of details that have to be considered when studying these results. Poliarquia in general has been the most accurate pollster around in recent years, and it’s accuracy in predicting the results of last year’s mid-term election was unparalleled. Saludos!
The data from polls are always suspect or at least need to be read with the knowledge of how the data was collected and the questions formulated. Anyone can sponsor a pre-determined polling result with the right formula. I think the elephant in the room in this thread for those concerned about “family values” really isn’t allowing the middle class gay couple secure their property and civil rights through marriage; I think the bigger issue for those concerned about the erosion of the traditional family is the creeping legality of divorce in Latin America.
Sarah Paddy Jones….just gave me a lesson.
How to live life. She is not only the most beautifull old lady I know…she is a dancer, an artist and has a big heart dancing with Nicola, taking care of each other….
Paddy, thanks for learning from you how to avoid to be decrepit, jugdmerntal and miserable…Your face is full of energy and glamour
Life is just that, and I sincerely admire you for taking the old creatures like me out of depression.
Just hope I will one day even with my mind learn from your attitude toward life.